The Ketovangelist Brian Williamson almost quit his Podcast and business. Heard an outcry from followers and is now building a keto empire.
Christopher & Brian talk the Keto, Entrepreneurial Set Backs, and Performance
- Keto can be complicated but doesn’t have to .
- How ketosis can aid the outdoor athlete in performance at altitude.
- How the truth is the truth.
- Consistent and quality content creation coupled with patience eventually pays off!
- The Facebook community Brian Created and manages Keto Success and much, much, more.
Read the full Transcript of this Episode
Rec-and-Tech BRIAN WILLIAMSON
Christopher: Hello everybody. Welcome to the Rec & Tech Podcast. I’m Christopher Claunch, the outdoor entrepreneur.
Today I am going to have a special guest that’s a little bit outside that transition from outdoor entrepreneur to technology entrepreneur. Many of you have been asking about the ketogenic diet and my recent journey with that and at first, I was able to reach out and help.
It was so overwhelming, both the encouragement and the questions that I went and decided to reach out to Brian Williamson, The Ketovangelist, who had been so helpful, probably unbeknownst to him, with my own journey by virtue of the fact that The Ketovangelist is a podcast that I’ve been listening to faithfully for some time, and also Brian wrote a book.
Settle in here, it’s got quite a long title. It’s “The Beginner’s Guide to Keto; the Fastest and Easiest Way to Get Fit, Lose Fat and Take Control of Your Health.”
Did I get that right Brian?
Brian: Yes. That’s correct.
One of the great things about Brian is, first of all, he agreed to do the podcast today, but also, one of the reasons I sought Brian — I could have picked any number of people that are experts in the area — but one of the things I noticed about Brian is that he was reaching out to help people with things like fat loss on the ketogenic diet when I think maybe some of his original motivations were around his — daughter?
Christopher: — son — that has epilepsy.
For almost a hundred years, now, the ketogenic diet has been used to ease symptoms that occur with epilepsy. A couple of those things that Brian talks about in [2:30] his book and that he makes evident in his daily practice is that he’s honest and he’s relevant.
So I reached out to Brian and said, “Hey man, I know you don’t know who I am and probably don’t understand why I would be doing a podcast with you, but I wanted to introduce you, Brian, to the recreation and the outdoor industry so they could come directly to you with their questions and/or use the resources that you’ve put out there to help them.
Welcome, and thank you very much for coming on my podcast today.
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Brian: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I was more than flattered when I got the invitation from you to come on. I appreciate that.
Christopher: It’s my pleasure. In return, we’ll sap it up a little bit here. I just have to say thank you to you because it is a very technical regimen. It is one that requires discipline; it’s not one where you can oscillate. So when I needed help, I did a couple of things. Of course, I read the book, and when I got into it and you spoke about things like the genetic makeup of a person and the need for mental strength, you didn’t dress it up with — it’s easy, you can do it for two weeks and you’re going to lose your ten pounds and whatever — talked about goal setting.
Many of the important factors, they actually mirror entrepreneurialism; they mirror things like hunting. For example, we bow hunt not because there’s the taking of an animal and the eating of great, natural foods, but because it’s also very challenging.
The ketogenic diet is challenging, isn’t it?
Brian: It certainly can be. It’s not for everyone. I’ll be honest. Okay. It is for everyone in the sense that it’s healthy, but it’s not always easy. It’s not for everyone because they don’t have the proper mindset for it. You’re right. It is very entrepreneurial in its approach because that’s just kind of how I think anyway.
Brian: Truth is truth. It doesn’t matter what arena it is. That was kind of my approach. If you get your mind right first, everything else kind of falls [5:00] into place.
And just so you know, I’m a bow hunter too.
Christopher: No, I didn’t know that. That’s awesome. Come on up.
Brian: In fact right above me up here, in my case, I’ve got my Bowtech Assassin. It’s just sitting there waiting for the fall to come back around.
Christopher: Or to upgrade to a Hoyt.
Christopher: Actually, in the Outdoors International group that I work with, with my Got Fishing business — one of my three or four jobs that I mentioned earlier — we either use Hoyt or Bowtech. It’s kind of a mixture. Everybody’s always looking for the newest, hottest bow.
Theresa, my wife, got me a bow for Christmas which I just picked up yesterday. I’d really been checking everything out and I needed something that fit my bigger frame. So I’m excited to take it out and, if nothing else, shoot targets in camp this weekend.
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So that’s awesome. I didn’t know that about you. I know Texas just has some wildly awesome bow hunting that you can do. As we discuss the makeup of the ketogenic diet, we can maybe talk a little bit about the future and where we some some applications in the outdoors industry. For us back-country hunters, we invariably run out of food. That’s just one of the things we like to do.
Christopher: So you mentioned getting your start and wanting to help people with the ketogenic diet and that it takes mindset and mental fortitude. You and I spoke briefly about creating content, reaching out and helping people and being kind of unaware of whether or not you’re reaching people and whether they were getting benefits.
I didn’t know this — although there was a lull in some of the podcasts and articles, I was busy doing my own thing — what happened there with the encouragement, mindset, that kind of thing? [7:30]
Brian: It’s May now — maybe a year ago, roughly or maybe 10 months ago. I had been putting up the podcast for a while. I started my, I started “The Ketovangelist” blog in February of 2015; I was writing an article a day, every day, Monday to Friday. And I did that for several months.
There’s this phenomenon when you’re starting out, especially when you’re creating content — and of course I started out… I didn’t know anyone; I had no network; I had no way of promoting anything because I just had no network
Brian: So I was just creating stuff and I would — I’m a horrible self promoter anyway — so I was just creating stuff, and creating stuff, and creating stuff.
The thing is, I knew I was writing stuff that was relevant to the journey. And I knew it was relevant to what people were needing answers to, but I didn’t have any way of getting it to them or knowing that they were actually reading it.
So after a period of time… I was 5 days a week; I’m creating stuff and I started a podcast because I figured I could get a larger reach.
I’m doing a podcast a week, I’m doing a blog post a day and I’m just creating, and creating, and creating, and I’m getting no feedback. The way I describe it is — you’re talking into the void.
Brian: You have no idea if anyone’s reading, you have no idea if anyone’s listening.
Yet, you can look you can look at analytics. Yes. I could see for a podcast episode I can see — I got 200 downloads of this podcast episode. OK, but I don’t know who’s listening and I don’t know if it’s helping, and I don’t know if those same 200
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people are going to be back next week because they liked it or if they’re going to be like, “this sucks” and they’re just going to throw it away and I’ll never hear from them again.
So I got to the point where I let all of that negativity kind of get to me a little bit. I was doing a lot of work and not seeing any real benefit from it. I have a family and a I have a full-time job and [10:00] it got to the point where I didn’t really see the benefit. So I took a break. It was a temporary break with the option for permanence.
Christopher: Sure, sure. I like the way you put that.
Brian: So I basically stopped doing everything for a couple of months and I would like to romanticize it and say I was re-evaluating everything. But really I didn’t look at the website at all. I didn’t look at the podcasts that I had at all. So when I started the podcasts, basically what I did is I recorded about 20 episodes.
Brian: I released them all at once.
So when someone comes for the podcast and they only had one episode, I couldn’t guarantee that they would stick around. So I wanted to give them enough that they would actually listen for a while and decide whether or not they liked me.
So I took this break and I didn’t do anything regarding the Ketovangelist. I did nothing at all, and at the time there was no Facebook group — I’ve started since then.
Christopher: The Ketogenic Success Group.
Brian: Yes, The Ketogenic Success Group.
Christopher: Great group.
Brian: Oh I appreciate that. We do a lot of work trying to make sure that it stays a positive place for everyone.
Christopher: [laughs] Another reason that I know you’re going to be successful is because you have haters.
Brian: That’s true too.
Christopher: Key element.
Brian: Yes, I was surprised at that but — we can talk about that for sure.
So I took a couple of months break.
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The other writer on the site who happens to be a friend of mine — her name is Mary Roberts — I asked her, “Hey would you be interested in writing some articles?” She said yes. So she had started writing a couple of articles and I still wasn’t decided whether or not I wanted to do this anymore just because its such a time-suck if your mindset’s not right.
Brian: So then I decided to start this Facebook group.
I started it, started inviting people. I edited some of the podcasts to where I changed the endings to where I actually advertised the group. Mary, my other writer, she went to every single group she was a member of and she promoted the group. So we got a bunch of people in there. [12:30] At this time I am still not doing a whole lot with the Ketovangelist site because I was still not sure what I wanted to do.
I saw this posting from a guy; I did not know him, never heard of him before and it basically said “I am listening to the Ketovangelist podcast; and I am waiting for the new episodes to hit. I do not know if this or not but you literally saved my life. I listened to them all, I recorded them on CDs and I listen to them in my car and while I am working. I’ve got this going constantly. If it wasn’t for that I would not be able to do what I am doing.”
Brian: So I am looking at this, and I am going “Holy crap; someone is actually listening.” It was not so much that I needed the validation, but I kind of needed the validation.
Christopher: I totally understand. And there is a whole bunch of entrepreneurs out there that have quit and have not come back. Because they decided to make that permanent.
Again, I was leaning that way. His name is Don by the way, the guy who posted that. I commented and I said, “Wow thanks; you just kind of motivated me to get the podcast running again.” He said, “Good, I am glad.” It turns out that he and I hit it off. He became one of my guinea pigs for the coaching series that I started as well. He was one of the first ones. But if it was not for him posting that I do not know if I would still be doing it today.
Christopher: One of the things that I do is that I lurk the internet and if I recognize — I was just beginning to prepare myself.
I was at function with Andrew Warner and Tim Ferris in April of last year. I was talking to Tim before he was leaving. He was fasting and he was about ready to take off — he was starving — and I said “you know what Tim, I have been waiting a long time to talk to you but I know that you need a butter filled steak or
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something right now.”
But I was so enthralled and one of the things that we were discussing was “decision fatigue” and the in ability to make good decisions when you are so busy.
A lot of really cool neurophysiological stuff in that discussion that night, but and one of the things I decided at that point is that I decided… [15:00]
I don’t know where I got my “bad” mindset Brian, but with all of the studies I had done — and even up to 7 years ago, experimenting with the cyclical ketogenic diet and reading Lyle McDonald stuff — I know there’s a body builder inside this body of mine, it just hasn’t come out yet.
Brian: [laughs] Right.
Christopher: You mentioned in your book — and I actually laugh when I read this; I totally remember it — you mention vascularity on the abs or a vein on your abs or something like that and I thought to myself — there’s veins down there?
Christopher: As I was listening to you I… I am going to say that I think I started… It couldn’t have been long after that because — I don’t know if there was 28 or 26, something like that, episodes — and I’d been listening to them ever since as they come up, and sometimes I search back and forth and I’ll say… There is a topic in here, you’re talking to a particular doctor I want or I need some encouragement, so I’ll listen to one of the coaching sessions because I know there will be accountability in that discussion.
Christopher: I’m also here to say that I’m glad that you continued because –
Christopher: I have 9 podcasts on my phone. You’re in pretty darn good company. Let me tell you.
Brian: Wow. I don’t know what to say. I appreciate that.
Christopher: And so I’m glad Don was out there. Don if you’re, if you happen get wind of this one — thank you very much for reaching out.
Because I do it all the time; I did it actually about 3 weeks ago. There was a guy who I think is in Ohio, and he was like “I decided that I’m going to quit doing my podcast,” and I sent him an email. And I said, “you don’t know me from Adam…”
Christopher: “Don’t quit.”
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Christopher: — “even if you’ve got to take a break.” I said, “you can respond to this; you can call me directly; I’m going to encourage you. But I’ve looked at your content; I’ve listened to your podcast — don’t do it.”
He didn’t contact me and I haven’t seen anything posted in 2 or 3 weeks, contentwise.
Christopher: When I was going through my training with Andrew for creating a podcast, and also in some long conversation I’ve had with other people that do podcasts, there’s that moment for all of us.
I hope to help you network that my tens of followers that are out there –
Christopher: — I’d encourage you to get out and listen to Brian.
One of the things that we all face and that all of these great entrepreneurs that have helped me, that really — they probably don’t even [17:30] know why — who is this person?
I did have a little bit of some tech success ahead of time, but I stuck with these guys for seven or eight years and commented on their site and watched and listened and waited for opportunities to help them.
I thought to myself — how am I ever going to help a juggernaut like that? Andrew — he had a website with 40,000,000 followers at one point back in the early 2000s.
Then you find that they have those same fears and those same weaknesses. They need encouragement too; they come up against bumps.
So that’s an awesome story. When did the book come out?
Brian: I wrote the book… It was last year, pretty close to a year ago. I produced a whole bunch of content… I was writing the book all at the same time… That was another thing. I put the book out and from a business perspective — you can have the greatest service, product, widget in the world — if nobody knows about it, you don’t have a business. That’s all there is.
Christopher: Right. For sure.
Brian: My problem was I was too focused on making the stuff and not focused enough on getting people to actually read it or buy it.
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It was about a year ago. It’s steadily up and down in terms of how it’s doing in the Amazon store.
Christopher: I’m going to pitch it a little bit for you. First of all, it’s very powerful and it’s very short which means for the time invested in reading it, you get a lot out. That’s exactly what people ask me — what do I have to do to get started? Is this diet right for me?
The ones that you probably love — you mean I have to give up chips? Chocolate muffins aren’t good for me? They’re not going to work on the ketogenic diet?
What does Theresa say to me? She’ll say, “Are sweet potatoes keto?”
Christopher: Then the big one — can I drink?
You know what? Yes, you can, [20:00] conceivably, because maybe even the similarities in the less stable ketone body acetoacetate and acetone, right?
Brian: Yes, acetone is the less stable one. The acetoacetate is a little bit more. Yes, exactly. There’s three.
Christopher: There’s some connection there, but I’m going to tell you right now from research that I did seven/eight years ago, that drinking 24 beers in a day is not ketogenic.
Brian: No, it’s not. 23 maybe, but 24 that’s when you –
Christopher: That’s the line right there.
Christopher: In delivering that book, what you do is you take a very complex subject and you say — these are some really key points. You need to be serious about it.
I believe you say that in your goals; you need to be honest about your goals. It’s really, super important. You need to be honest with yourself and you need to say — I want to go “skins” on the Train to Hunt website in July when I go out there, which was one of my motivations for doing the diet, was to participate in Train to Hunt.
Then I started looking at my lipids, my blood panels, and my doctor started calling me Benjamin Button. I oscillated between 98 and 106 on blood sugar and mine’s been resting at like 70 or 72 since. I sent my panels to Ben Greenfield. I don’t know if you know who Ben Greenfield is?
Brian: I do.
Christopher: You want to talk about a dude that can do some research. He is a freak. He gets into it. Things even to the size of my cholesterol molecules being perfect and all of
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So I was — I was taking tidbits from the book. You also posted content on Reddit, is that correct?
Brian: I have never posted content on Reddit, but some people have actually taken some of my articles and put it there.
Brian: I’ll take it as a form of flattery, but it wasn’t coming directly from me.
Christopher: OK. That’s how I found your podcast.
Christopher: There is a link on there that says, “Go get this book.” Someone’s out there promoting you without you knowing it.
Brian: Really? That’s awesome. [22:30]
Christopher: So for those people who are to lazy to go out and buy your book and read it –
Christopher: — maybe you could somehow give… I know it’s tough but, a brief overview of the ketogenic diet for fat loss.
Brian: OK, yes. So can I share a secret with you?
Brian: The essence of the book is on my blog, and it’s on the podcast. So basically all of the key points are in podcast episodes and in articles that I’ve written.
That doesn’t mean I won’t talk about it now. I’m just saying if someone is more interested in… If they’re a reader and they have to have the words in front of them, they can just go peruse the website. I can use the traffic.
The essence of the Ketogenic diet…
I do want to bring up something that may not be relevant to some of your listeners — I apologize — but what happens when something becomes popular or becomes more popular is certain personalities get a hold of things and they attempt to make those things more suitable to their personality as apposed to objectively true in and of itself.
What I’m getting at is — for example, let’s take the paleo movement. So the paleo movement when it started was essentially very, very simple — did your palaeolithic ancestors eat it? No? Don’t eat it. Right?
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Brian: It really doesn’t get more complicated than that.
However, people started taking paleo and kind of making it their own thing. That’s when people were like, “I’m paleo but I eat dairy as well, but I’m still paleo.” That’s fine as long as you qualify it as, “this is what I’m doing.” What happened is, people started saying, “no, this is paleo now.”
So then you get other personalities who come in and say that X, Y and Z is paleo, and then ABC is paleo. So basically, now paleo becomes this hodge-podge of things that you don’t really know what it is. So if you’re an outsider and you’ve never really heard this before and doing any kind of research you have no idea what anything is — because it’s everything.
Brian: Well, this sort of thing is happening with keto as well.
Christopher: Sure it is
Brian: All of that stuff is going on just to say…
Here is how I stick to what I’m defining as the ketogenic diet and lifestyle.
I base it upon two scientists: Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek; who are — the premier — the grandfathers of ketogenic research when it comes to not only dietary fat loss, but also athletic performance.
Christopher: Can you repeat their names again?
Brian: Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek. They’ve written two books, and the first book is called “The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living”
Christopher: Yes. The second?
Brian: The second book is called “The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance”
Brian: They’re great, they’re fantastic. They’re quick, easy reads; there’s a ton of science in there. I cannot recommend them enough.
Christopher: They’re right over there.
Brian: On your bookshelf?
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Brian: Mine are in my Kindle, so I can’t show you.
I base all of my preliminary information, my foundational stuff off of how they assigned it. Because the are the ones… It was Stephen Phinney who coined the term “nutritional ketosis.”
Brian: A ketogenic diet based upon how I’m going to describe it, and I don’t care how anyone else does it, and I’m not asking anyone else to take my definition, this is just, you asked me, so I’m going to tell you how I do it.
It is a diet that is primarily/majority good fats. And when I say primarily/majority, what I mean is — between 65% and 80% of your daily caloric intake is going to be fat. But not just any kind of fat; it’s got to be good fats. There are three primary types of fats. Do you want to get into this some more?
Christopher: Absolutely. Because that’s the question I’m getting asked.
Christopher: What kind of fat?
You know what? You’re teaching me something right now that I may have overlooked. I might be eating some bad fats that I shouldn’t be.
Brian: So there’s three primary kinds of fats. There is saturated fats, everyone’s heard of that — and they’re the evil ones but we’ll talk about that in a minute — there’s monounsaturated fats, and then there’s polyunsaturated fats.
Saturated fats are basically any animal fat, palm oil, and coconut oil. Those are primarily what you’ll see with saturated fats. So [27:30] if you’re eating beef, if you’re eating eggs, if you’re eating chicken skin, if you’re eating any kind of animal stuff — that’s going to be mostly saturated fats.
Those saturated fats are made up of — and stop me if I’m getting into the weeds too much — but those saturated fats are going to be made up of different kinds of monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats, but they are saturated in their nature. They’re the healthy ones.
Coconut oil would be an example of a really pure saturated fat. This is one of the reasons that I’m a huge advocate for coconut oil. It’s got a lot of properties that are really, really beneficial, but it’s one of the purest forms of saturated fats that you can find.
Second kind of fat is monounsaturated fats. The two main sources for monounsaturated fats are going to be olive oil, which I think everyone’s heard of –
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Brian: — and macadamia nuts.
The other is avocados. Some people have a problem with avocados, because they are high in carbs, and I’ll get into why that’s a problem in a minute.
So the three primary forms of monounsaturated fats are olive oil, macadamia nuts, and avocados — and I’m sorry if I’m going off on tangents.
Christopher: You’ve got to remember that typically, at least the people that I’ve found that have resorted to the ketogenic diet based on the mindset or the stereotypes around it, are pretty serious, and they’re going to want to dig in, and I think that they’re — at least from my personality type — that they’re going to be more successful if they understand what they’re getting into. Because like you said at the beginning with the precursor, it’s very easy to get off track.
Because I track my calories, I track my nutritional profiles, and when I get off track, I’ll go back and put my food in at the end of the day and realize that I went 500 calories over, and I ate a whole bunch of carbohydrates that I didn’t know I ate, and I ate a whole bunch of bad fat.
Brian: That’s a good point. Let me take a step back and say…
A saturated fat, let’s talk about what it actually is. A saturated fat is a fat that has all single bonds. The [30:00] carbon bonds are single bonds, which means that each one of those carbon atoms are attached to each other, and there is no room for anything else to make it in there.
It will essentially be solid at room temperature, because the stability of the makeup of the fat, means that nothing is going to get into those strings of molecules. A saturated fat is one that is a single bond across the carbon chain, and it’s going to be very, very stable. Again, it’s going to be solid in room temperature, typically.
A monounsaturated fat, like we’re just talking about with the macadamia nuts, the olive oil and the avocados — it has one double bond. So it’s a single bunch of carbon atoms stuck together, but it has a single double bond. That’s why it’s a “mono unsaturated fat.”
So there’s one place in there that is unsaturated, but the rest of the chain is saturated. So again it is very stable, because of that.
Polyunsaturated fats are the bad fats. Polyunsaturated fats are any vegetable or seed oil that you can think of.
There is one exception to the polyunsaturated fat rule, but I don’t agree to it. I say there is one exception to it, because Phinney and Volek, the two guys I mentioned before — there is a type of canola oil that they don’t advocate; they say it’s basically safe. They’re right, but from my perspective, it’s better to tell everyone to stay away from canola oil. Yes there may be a variety that’s that’s
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less unhealthy or may not have as much omega-6 that’s causing inflammation. However, if you stay away from all canola oil, you don’t have to worry about it. I just want to make that caveat. So anyway…
The polyunsaturated fats are the ones that have tons and tons and tons of double bonds. Now why is that bad? These double bonds are unstable. It’s pretty well known in chemistry that if you got a double bond and someone throws some hydrogen at it, those double bonds [32:30] are going to swing around and want to attach themselves to that hydrogen atom.
Brian: So have you ever heard of “hydrogenated oils?”
Brian: OK, that’s what that is.
What they’ve done is they’ve taken a polyunsaturated oil or fat of some kind, which is liquid at room temperature — not solid — and they slam a whole bunch of hydrogen at it. What happens is it will solidify because the hydrogen makes those bonds single. It takes those double bonds, makes them single, so now you’ve got this…
That’s why Crisco is solid at room temperature, Margarine is solid at room temperature. The problem is — it results in what’s called a trans-fat. So the transfat…
There are, probably thousands of charts online that you can look for if you do a search for “trans-fats and heart disease,” and you’re going to see that since the late 50s, early 60s, when margarine became a thing
Brian: — and when Crisco became a thing, the rates of heart disease has gone up almost as a one to one correlation. That’s primarily for two reasons. One — polyunsaturated fats are really high in what’s called omega-6 fatty acids.
Brian: Omega-6 fatty acids are inflammatory. Inflammation is the result of your internal systems, i.e. your soft tissue, being swollen to the point where it can actually restrict blood flow; it can actually restrict fluid movement.
If you talk to any kind of surgeon at all, they will tell you right now that one of the most insidious epidemics that they deal with is inflammation because it prevents you from being able to heal correctly and quickly.
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Brian: So Omega-6 again is a bad oil.
Having said that, you do need some amount of Omega-6. However, because the bacon that you’re eating was donated by a pig who ate some vegetables — that’s really all the Omega-6 you’ll need, is what you’re getting out of the bacon.
Remember I was talking before, how there is polyunsaturated fat, there is monounsaturated fat inside saturated fat?
Brian: — if you’re getting it from an animal source, that animal, [35:00] chances are, ate vegetables of some kind — you’re good.
Christopher: I had mentioned that there was a gentleman that stopped by my store — I have a sporting goods store a couple miles from my house; I went down today and I was going to do the podcast from there, but I was inundated with people talking to me and things like that — one of the people that stopped in…
Of the four people that actually asked me about ketogenic diet advice today, Pete came in an I showed him around — we play hockey together up in Boise and he has a route — he said, “Man, I just want to tell you my story; I’ve been so successful,” and he said, “but one of the things that’s really got me amazed is on this note of inflammation, I would fall down in hockey before I was on the ketogenic diet, and I would bruise really bad. It would take a really long time to go away.”
He said lately that when he gets bruises, they’re much smaller, much less discolored and they heal much faster. I just thought I’d throw that in to kind of validate the inflammation science.
Brian: Yes, absolutely. That’s all part of it. So when you… I’m going to get political for just a second, but it’s food political –
Christopher: Right. More haters. [laughs]
Brian: The reason that we have such a problem with vegetable oils is because the soy industry — the soy lobby — starting in the late 70s moving all the way through the 80s and into the 90s… The soy essentially presented all of the scare tactics that they could in order to overtake where coconut oil was and palm oil was.
As I said, coconut oil and palm oil are saturated fats — they’re the healthiest fats.
Before any environmental folks get on my case, I’m referring to red palm oil which is not in Southeast Asia and it’s not contributing to the deforestation and the loss of habitation for the orangutan.
Christopher: [laughs] You got it down.
Brian: Yes. Red palm oil comes from Brazil; it comes from Africa; no orangutans there, so
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we’re good. Palm oil and coconut oil, super [37:30] great — if I can say that as an adjective — “super-great” forms of saturated fat.
Well, the soybean oil was losing share, and they wanted to make sure they could take over the coconut oil thing because the flawed science was saying that saturated fats was bad. So, they lobbied and they lobbied and they lobbied and they made everyone afraid of saturated fats, and then even the egg industry suffered because of it. That’s why everything became hydrogenated; that’s why everything became vegetable oils.
Again, you can see those charts of the epidemiologists’ studies that show that rates of inflammation have gone through the roof and rates of cardiovascular disease and heart disease, rates of asthma, rates of autoimmune disorders, rates of diabetes — all of it. So it’s going up and up and up.
All of this to say — get rid of all of the vegetable oil that you have got in your house. Like, right now if you are home, pause this; get up, and throw that crap out because there is no use for it whatsoever. I will give you one exception if you have a whole bunch of lint or old socks you could poor it on them and use them as fire starters maybe.
Christopher: I like it, yes.
Brian: So we’ve got three kinds of fats — two of them are good; one of them is bad. The good fats are saturated and monounsaturated. So anything that is animal fat, coconut oil, butter or red palm oil, totally good. Have at it.
Anything that is macadamia nut oil, avocado oil or olive oil, have at it. They are good.
Alright so the two kinds of fats that you really want to focus on are saturated and monounsaturated fats.
Now, your diet should consist of — I am going to bring it back from where I started before I digressed so far but –
Christopher: Nothing like a little rabbit trail here. I love ’em.
Brian: Your diet should consist of 65-80% of that, of those things, of those fats. The rest of your diet is going to consist of…
There are only four kinds of macros that you can eat. When I say “macro” I am talking about a macronutrient.
Brian: Nutrients are divided into two categories, two major families. You got a macronutrient and you got a micronutrient.
Micronutrients are things that we call vitamins and minerals — vitamin A vitamin D
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Vitamin C; those are micro nutrients. Magnesium is a micro nutrient.
A macronutrient… [40:00]
For folks who are getting into the “keto” world — the ketogenic world — and they hear someone asking, “What’s your macros?” What they’re asking is — what is the makeup of your macronutrients?
There are four macronutrients. There is fat, protein, carbs and alcohol.
Fat has a…. has a bad rep because it’s energy dense. It’s got 9 calories per gram. Carbs and protein both have 4 calories per gram. Alcohol has 7 calories per gram.
Now, we’re not going to count alcohol because nobody… Well, if you’re living a healthy-ish lifestyle you shouldn’t probably be getting alcohol every single day. Any kind of –
Christopher: [laughs] Maybe not even every single week.
Speaker 2: Let me take a real quick second, Brian, just to make sure we understand where you’re at.
The Ketogenic diet is a diet strategy that is made up of dividing “macros.” Those macros are the nutrient categories — fat, carbohydrates, protein; we have a fourth macronutrient calorie category that would be alcohol. Some would argue that Ketone esters or exogenous ketones would fall in that category and/or a fifth macronutrient category but that’s for… There is no way we have time to go into that today.
But we’ve got those categories you’re going to want to focus on the largest category, which is going to be fats, 60 — 80 %, and there’s three kinds of those fats, and the two that we want to focus on are saturated and mono —
Christopher: — unsaturated.
Brian: Monounsaturated and saturated, yes. So that being your primary macronutrient, the other two would be carbs and protein.
So let’s go back to Phinney and Volek — the guys that I used for my definitions. Phinney and Volek basically say that if you keep your carbs at less than 50 grams per day, you’re good.
Brian: I — based upon work that I’ve done with folks who are slightly more sensitive to carbohydrates, you know, type 2 diabetics, those kinds of folks — I advocate 20
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grams, more or less, of carbs a day.
Really there are people — they can eat a hundred grams a day and they’re still going to be able to say they’re still going to be ketogenic.
Christopher: And we don’t like those people, do we?
Brian: No, we don’t.
Christopher: For sure.
Brian: No. We poke them with things.
— so it really is independent of the numbers. You have to find out what works for you.
That’s one of the reasons I really, really like keto, because it allows you to learn a lot about your body.
But here’s the general rule. And again, anything that I’m saying is going to be a general rule that you have to tweak to your own.
The general rule is 20 grams or less per day of carbohydrates. Now, the carbohydrates that you eat are going to be in the form of deep, green, leafy vegetables. The darker the green, the better. Things like cauliflower, things like jicama, things like cabbage. Things that are not what you would consider to be sugary. Things you would not consider to be junk food. If you have to unwrap it, don’t eat it; that’s basically it.
So obviously, all sugar is out, all processed foods are out. All of your carbs are coming from vegetable sources. Some people say it’s okay to have fruits. I do not. But that’s because I’m a sugar addict, and if I start throwing some fruit down my gullet, I’m going to start wanting more, and it’s going to send me off on a bad route. But if you do want to eat fruit, the fruits that you want to stay with are berries and citrus fruit. Not oranges, so limes, lemons, berries.
Christopher: There may be an argument for apples, but that’s some different science and I don’t know that it actually plays, but it is a super fiber-rich fruit and I don’t eat them now but I’ve had some success with those in the past on a cyclical ketogenic diet.
Brian: The thing about apples is if this was a hundred years ago, and we were talking about actual — no-kidding — heirloom apples, that’s one thing.
Brian: But apples have been modified over the years to have ten times the amount of fructose and three times less the amount of fiber [45:00] as before.
The reason that fiber matters in this regard, is because it does slow the process; it
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increase the glycemic index of whatever sugary foods you’re going to be eating. So the higher your fiber is — it’s not that fiber is necessarily healthier for you — it just delays the digestion and the metabolism of the sugar that you’re eating.
Pretend like I’m still here. I feel like I’ve been sitting in this chair for about three hours, I’m just going to step over here, keep on talking; I have the recording. [laughs].
Brian: OK, no problem.
The third macro that you’re going to worry about, so again, carbs — you’re going to want 20 grams or less per day, is the general guide line.
For protein it’s a little bit more complicated. Protein has both a ceiling and a floor. What I mean by that is — there is an upper limit to the amount of protein you should have, and there is a lower limit to the amount of protein you should have.
The upper limit is based upon what kind of stress you’re putting on to your body. In other words, if you’re lifting weights, that upper limit is going to increase; you’re going to need more. If you’re a world class tri-athlete, or in that vein, you’re going to need more, because you’re stressing your body, so it needs to build up faster.
So there is an upper limit, there is also a lower limit, and the lower limit is the protein that you need to basically stay alive.
Protein is made of things called amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks for all the soft tissue you’ve got inside your body — your heart, your liver, your intestines, all your muscles, all the organs that you’ve got inside your body — they’re made up of amino acids that are joined into protein strings.
As I’m sure you are aware, as time goes on things start to break down. I think the last thing that I read regarding this is — every five years your basically a whole different person.
The cells have regenerated so many times and they have gone through so many different iterations that you’re basically a whole new body every five years — aside from the metaphysical impacts of that –
Brian: — the fact that there is such high turnover, you need a certain amount of protein in order to just stay alive; otherwise what happens is your body starts to break down its own soft tissue in order to [47:30] reclaim these amino acids for other things.
So the last thing you want to be is in a situation where your body has to decide — do I want to build up this bicep? or should I make sure this liver is functioning
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Christopher: — that’s not a good place to be. There’s a minimum amount of protein that you need. What I tell people is as a general guideline, females will need roughly 5075g per day of protein. Males are going to need roughly 100-120g per day of protein.
Those are very general guidelines.
Your level of activity, your makeup, your body composition as it is — all of those things are going to determine whether or not that’s appropriate. Also, you can be really ripped, really buff, really big and you still have a metabolism that is very sensitive to protein so you are going to have to find a real, real razor-thin edged balance there, especially if you’re trying to be ketogenic.
Now, the reason I’m saying this is because 54% percent of all protein can be and often is converted into sugar by your body.
Now if you are trying to stay ketogenic, and you’re trying to keep your blood glucose numbers down, that’s something you need to consider because you don’t want to over do your protein because your body is going to look at that basically as sugar. When it sees enough of a fuel source as sugar, it’s not going to use fat. I’ve spoken all of this just to talk about the macro so I can actually get to what the definition of ketogenic is.
Brian: 65-80% should be good fats, less than twenty grams of carbs a day, and if you’re male, 100-120g of protein a day, female, 50-75g of protein per day.
Now, the reason you want that kind of setup in your metabolism is because you’re trying to change your fuel source.
You have two fuel sources that your body can use. You can burn sugar or you can burn fat. Your body prefers sugar. The reason your body prefers sugar is it is less costly for your body to burn sugar. What I mean by that is, there’s less work involved for your body to actually burn sugar because your body will readily take glucose and shuttle it into the cells and the cells can do stuff to it.
Brian: In order for your body to burn fat, it has to convert those fatty acid molecules into what’s known as keytones, and it then uses those keytones to burn for fuel.
So this is where the route of the word ketogenic, it’s the fact that you are burning fat in order to get keytones so you can use those ketones to fuel the mitochondria in yourself.
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Now shifting from the glucose fuel source to the fat fuel source is akin to going from a small 2-cycle gas engine to a 10 cylinder Diesel engine with the trailer being your fuel tank. So what I mean by that is, you can only store a small amount of glucose in your body total, and we’ll say at maximum you can store 2,000 calories of sugar in your body. That’s when it’s packed inside your liver, that’s when it’s packed inside your muscles, that’s when it’s flowing through your blood. You’re not going to get much more than 2,000 calories.
Now, if anyone’s ever done any kind of endurance event or they’ve gone out. Let’s say we’re talking hunting.
Brian: You’ve gone out and you’ve spent 12 hours, and you’re not just sitting in a blind somewhere; you’re actually tracking.
Brian: If you’ve gone out and you’ve spent 8-10 hours tracking, you’re going to notice around the 6-8 hour mark, you’re gonna hit what’s called a wall. You’re going to start bonking; you’re gonna start really feeling it.
Brian: That’s because your body is burning sugar and you can only store so much sugar. You don’t have the ability to generate that sugar; you need external sources in order to generate that. That’s why you start feeling weird. That’s why the neuromuscular systems starts to shut down a little bit and you start feeling disoriented. You kind of have to sit down; you start feeling dizzy; your blood sugar starts to drop. All these things are bad, bad situations.
Christopher: Not to mention your cognitive ability is falling at that same rate.
Brian: Tremendous, yes, it’s really dangerous when you’re carrying a ballistic or a belated weapon of some kind, that you may [52:30] not be in full faculties.
Brian: But the easy solution for that is you grab a gel pack or you grab a Little Debbie’s Snack Cake or whatever. The problem with that, though, is in 45 minutes you’re going to be in the same situation. So the problem with continuously fueling with sugar is — your body will burn through it really fast. It’s going to need it again and again and again.
Now, the other fuel source is fat. I do a lot of research in the performance arena.
Brian: — endurance and muscle-building in particular. Those are two real pet areas of mine.
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What the studies are showing is that when you’re a fat burner you have none of those problems. You are able to go longer, go faster, go harder and not have to recover nearly as much as if you’re burning sugar. Because you can store 40,000 calories even if you’re a 10% body fat fitness model. You’re still going to have 40,000 calories worth of energy just on your body fat. Someone like me who’s not at 10%, I’m going to have more than that. Someone who is a little bit heavier, they’re going to obviously have more than that. So if you’re burning fat as your primary fuel source you don’t have to worry about bonking, really.
That’s one of the benefits of being ketogenic is you’re untethered from the food. Whereas before, every three you have got to find something to eat, otherwise you get “hangry,” you start getting… You feel weird; your blood sugar drops.
When you’re keto-adapted none of that happens. You can go –
Christopher: Now, in addition to… Let’s say that you are out hunting for 12 hours, walking up and down and you’re fat-adapted or you’re burning fat already. You went into the mountains ketogenic.
Christopher: At hour 12, you also start to gain some benefits of fasted or starvation ketosis.
Brian: Yes. One of the great things about keto… Fasting is a situation where you’re just not eating. There’s a difference between fasting and starving. [55:00] Fasting is… Starving is when there’s no food around. Fasting is when you’re not eating. Those are two very different things.
Christopher: Right. That’s a great way to put it.
Brian: One of the great things about keto is that it has — I tell people “it has fasting baked into it. It’s built in to the structure. Because when you’re keto-adapted, food no longer is entertainment, it’s just fuel and you don’t look at it the same way.
It’s still enjoyable but it’s just fuel. You’re more easily able to remove yourself from that emotional dependence upon food, so you can fast a whole lot easier and you don’t have to worry about it.
The benefits of those things are the opposite of being glucose-dependent. When you are in a fasted state if you are ketogenic and you hit a fasted state and you start hitting this, we call “a starvation level of ketosis” and what that means is you are in the upper edge of blood-keytone levels.
Stephen Phinney defined the term “nutritional keytosis” and he defined it as a 0.5 to a 5.0mM of blood keytones per deciliter.
So if you are a tracking geek, like a lot of folks in keto are, and you like the numbers and you track every day what your blood-keytone levels are and you’re
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seeing anywhere between 0.5 and 5.0 you are in what’s called “nutritional ketosis.”
The optimal range is going to be between 1 and 3. Starvation range — and I hate that term but that is the term that is used — the starvation range is between 3.1 and 5. All that means is your body is producing a lot of keytones.
Now, what happens because of that… Like I said, it’s the opposite of being glucose-dependent, is that your brain’s cognitive ability starts to sharpen; your focus starts to increase. There are lots of different reasons that people have posited as to why that is — I have my own — [cuts off]
If you’re hunting and you’ve gone and you have not killed anything, and you still need food, this is a way that your body [57:30] is able to…
Let’s take one step back.
Let’s say you are a paleolithic man and you are hunting. Your diet is primarily going to be fat and meat. You’re not eating a lot of carbs, so you are basically ketogenic.
Well, if you haven’t killed anything all day, and you have been out there for 15 hours, you still got to kill something, because your wife and kids — they still need food. This is a way for your body to actually get focused so that in case you are missing something — because it’s like, hey, we have been here for a while, can we get this done now? So it’s a way for you to actually start paying attention better, because your brain is like “dude, we need some food.” So instead of your brain to instead of your brain going “we need some food, so I’m going to start shutting systems down,” it’s going “let’s get this stuff heightened so we can actually get something to eat.”
Christopher: I am in total agreement, and at least my research, under my personal observations of one setting. Totally agree there’s magnificence in the human body, and there is a defense mechanism that is set up that says “OK, it’s been long enough let’s get focused.”
I have never really heard it put that way so I appreciate the perspective and we are definitely in agreement that that’s why it happens, and as you mentioned, the opposite occurs in glucosis or in the American high sugar diet, carbohydrate diet, your body actually performs worse as it gets to that state of becoming hungry and maybe begins to store fat to prepare for the worst.
Brian: What you said, I kind of glossed over is — when you are in the “SAD” diet — the standard American diet, that typical high carbohydrate, high processed carbohydrate diet, you’re going to store fat because the carbohydrates create insulin spikes and the insulin is the granddaddy of all hormones. It does everything it can to make sure that you stay fat and stationery.
One of the things that I tell people is that your brain is a magnificent center… It’s a computer. It is designed to do one thing; it’s designed to keep you alive.
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Brian: Well, you will stay alive if you stay still; you will stay alive if you will stay hidden; you will stay alive if you are not taking risks, so your brain is defined to be this [60:00] huge risk management center. It’s taking in constant input, internal and external, and it’s constantly making Wang decisions on whether or not it’s got to make — is now the time to run? Is now the time to stay still? What are we doing?
Because of that, when you are on the SAD diet, when you’re eating a lot of carbs, you’re eating a lot of sugar, you can get fuel with very minimal effort. So your brain says — this is good; I don’t have to move to do this.
So your brain get hooked on it.
If you look at brain scans when people are eating sugar the same centers that light up when they’re on coke — cocaine — or they’re on heroine, light up when they take in sugar. The same exact addictive centers of your brain light up like a Christmas tree when you take in sugar.
Because your brain is like — this is easy food; it’s going to fuel me. Because your brain does not think long term; your brain never has a five year plan; your brain is like — what do I have to do to right now to stay alive. That’s what your brain does. All of these things play in it.
If you’ve trained your body, if you’ve keto-adapted… Because it takes a period of time to get there; you can’t just decide — OK, I’m going to go out today and I’m just not going to eat anything and I’ll be keto-adapted by the time I find whatever it is I’m going to be hunting — that’s a bad, bad thing to do. It takes some time. It takes up to four weeks to get keto-adapted.
Christopher: Did you say four weeks Brian?
Brian: Yes, it can take up to four weeks depending on the individual. So don’t go out into the bush thinking you’re just going to skip breakfast and you’re going to be fat adapted; that’s a great way to be on the evening news.
Christopher: For sure.
Brian: The point is you have to start with a well-formulated ketogenic diet doing those things we talked about before, for a period of time to get adapted so that your body is used to burning fuel. Because your body doesn’t want to do it.
Like I said before, your body prefers sugar because it takes less energy to burn sugar; it takes a lot more energy to burn fuel. So it will do it but it does not want to at first because why would it have to do stuff… It’s just like your kids cleaning their room. Not cleaning their room is a whole lot easier so why would they do that. So it’s exactly the same thing.
Once you get keto-adapted and once you start burning ketones for your fuel and
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you start burning fat for your fuel your body [62:30] really likes that and it really wants to stay there, and the longer you do that the more resistant you become to all of those carbs that you ate before, and the more stable you become and all the benefits were talking about before — the mental stability and focus and emotional stability and all those — they just get magnified the longer you stay in a ketogenic state. All of the chemicals that are involved that play into how you interact all day long — they become stabilized. This idea of homeostasis which means basically “equilibrium” — your body is constantly seeking homeostasis and when you’re ketogenic, it makes the body whole lot easier to find that homeostasis so it’s a lot easier for you to be in this even keel.
If I can give it a personal anecdote for that.
Brian: When I first started doing ketogenic, I started because of what because I was trying to model for my son; he has epilepsy and as you said in the introduction, epilepsy has been treated for hundreds of years with a ketogenic diet with great success.
Brian: It wasn’t until the advent of the pharmaceutical solution that the ketogenic diet went out of fashion.
So I started it because I was trying to model that for my son and what I didn’t know is — not only was I going to lose weight — because I didn’t care about that; that wasn’t why I started it; it’s just a side effect — what I didn’t know is I was actually going to come out of a depression, because I was in a really, really bad depression when I started.
Brian: Like, bad. Like I-don’t-know-how-I’m-going-to-make-it-today kind of bad.
Christopher: The trapped-in kind of the inability to step off of negative thoughts, completely out of control of that mind that within your own head and having it be… I’ve been there myself. I understand how that can be and I had no idea of the ability for metabolic therapy to assist with that.
But go on with your story.
Brian: Then you can probably… I think you can probably relate to what I’m going to say.
After a few weeks and I started realizing that I feel good. So I turned to my wife one day and I said is this how normal people feel? Because I can [65:00] understand why people enjoy life now; I can understand why they want to get out of bed. Because I did not want that before. It’s that stabilization thing that’s important.
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So are we good on time?
Christopher: I’m good. We can go till about midnight if you want.
Christopher: Yes, I think we’re at about 50 minutes on recording. We can talk and when you’re done with me, you can tell me to go away.
Brian: No, I’ll go as long as you want me to. Please feel free to course-correct me too.
Christopher: Yes, you’ve really put together a nice set of rungs in a ladder or stepping stones for people. I’m going to tell you what — there’s not a lot of us out there on the ketogenic diet yet. The information, like you said, is going to become far more cloudy. The first thing you hear out of somebody’s mouth is — How do you cheat? — that kind of stuff, right? — How do you make it easier? What are the shortcuts? Things like that.
Really, what I like to communicate to people was that if you’re serious about longterm health, both mental and physical, this is where you need to be. How do I know? I tried everything. Some of it worked a little bit. Some of it didn’t.
But what you’re talking about right now may be the most important segment of what we’re talking about right now, and that is neurological, emotional, mental health that comes from this homeostasis created in the ketogenic diet. So, yes, super interesting. Continue.
Brian: The hormonal balances are just night and day. There are any number of disorders that are disorders of hormonal imbalance. These hormonal imbalances, they present themselves in a myriad of different ways.
I have a theory. I have a theory on a lot of things, so it’s not a theory I can prove but I’m going to tout it as if I had proved it already. Things like ADHD, things like ADD, things like depression, and I’m not discounting any [67:30] of these things. What I’m saying is — all of these things have a hormonal component. That is known.
What has not been address really is — is there’s a dietary/metabolic method to reestablish that hormonal balance that can alleviate those demonstrated symptoms. Take someone… for example, my nephew who is autistic — he’s a high-functioning autistic — but he’s still autistic; my brother and his wife succumbed to my ever-sosubtle suggestions that they adopt keto as the way they eat and their son is flourishing because of it to the point that they were really surprised. They’re now at a point where he may be able to live on his own at least in some capacity far and above they thought he was going to be able to.
Christopher: That’s fantastic news.
Brian: It’s things like that, right? Of course it’s anecdotal; it’s an N equals one. Fine.
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But those things add up. In my personal experience having come out of a depression and having lived most of my adult life under this cloud and now not having anything close to it, to me is enough evidence to know that there is something there. I’m trying to reach out to other folks who are in the clinical world who are able to use this dietary component as a way to treat or at least to address certain other aspects. Because, again, it’s fascinating to me. If you could increase your productivity — from a practical perspective — if you can increase your productivity just because you change the way you eat, why wouldn’t you?
Christopher: You know, one of the things that I share with people that I’m helping in their startup or as they begin to design their lifestyle from an entrepreneurial fashion, one of the things I talk about [70:00] is cognitive ability and productivity, especially in our connected world today. We’re always on, we’re always getting that. We need to be able to partition things and prioritize and do things like that.
I can tell you right now that being in a state of nutritional ketosis all of the time gives me a tremendous advantage. Maybe the ability to do what I put myself in position to do today would only be possible, if not plausible in this particular metabolic posture. Because before I went into it — what had happened is I began to put on weight. I had been working in the store and doing my software job during the day and doubling up and the longer that I went, even though I had a stand up desk and thought that I had prepared myself for that, as I began to get weary and I began to suffer decision fatigue and make bad decisions about business and make bad decisions about diet I put on 2 lbs a month, 3 lbs a month, 4 lbs a month, 5 lbs a month, until the point that I had stood there 8 months ago facing the fact that although I hadn’t made a whole lot of changes — I had stopped exercising and I started eating bad — and my clarity mentally and my mental stamina was gone.
All of these things are evidenced through my observation and obviously clinical research and the liking. But anecdotally speaking, when it happens to you, you want to try to communicate it but until you feel it — until you experience that insomnia in the first three weeks, going through that transformation and your mind says “I really don’t want to go to bed. I’m not stressed; I’m not depressed; I don’t have anxiety. I don’t want to go to bed because there’s all this stuff going on here and it’s pretty cool.”
Brian: Yes. It’s one thing to have insomnia that is stress related. It’s another thing to have insomnia because you’re just not tired. It’s not like you have to get things done; it’s a matter of “I’m just in a good place, and I’m just not tired right now. I could work if I want to work, I could read a book, or I could meditate if I want” — It doesn’t matter what I want to do right now; [72:30] it’s just a matter of — I’m in control of what I want to do. I’m not at the whim of things that I can not control, i.e. the hormones that are so out of whack that they’re making me…
Brian: Yes, absolutely crazy.
Christopher: For sure. They’re powerful.
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One of the places that I started in my quest on research was around the hypothalamus and its direction. I often say, “Right idea. Wrong molecule.” I was looking at HCG and the way that that performed. I actually experimented with that — an HCG diet. I had a lot of the same symptoms. I thought it was the hypothalamus doing all of this, controlling the hormones. I really came to find out that I was entering in to a fairly swift state of ketosis along with that hormone.
The first time that I felt it again was in about the third to fourth week of ketosis where I was really feeling “up.” I experienced it and I was like, — Aha! Super low calorie diet, 500 calories or less and look at where I’m at today. I kind of put two and two together.
I just want to say that I think Ellen just came out with a book called “The Keto Cure.” The abilities or the bounds of ketosis and where it could go, outside the spectrum of the weight loss quotient, are massive. That clarity mentally helps you to achieve that fat loss goal as well.
Brian: Sure. Absolutely.
The majority of people come to keto because they’re trying to lose body fat. The majority of people stay with keto because of how it makes them feel and because they actually start to get healthy. A large portion of people who quit keto, do so because they come into it with the wrong mindset.
They come into it with one of two mindsets, either — I’m just going to do this for a couple of weeks so that I can lose five pounds for my reunion — or they’re coming into it like, — oh, my friend Julie lost 20 pounds in a week. I’m going to do the same thing.
When it doesn’t work out like that, Oh, keto doesn’t work, and they quit.
Christopher: Right. [75:00]
Brian: People who stay in keto, they do it because — and I hear this constantly — you’re in the on the Facebook reviews or you’re in the ketogenic success forums.
Brian: I hear constantly “I’ve never felt better” or “I can’t imagine living a different way” or “I can actually function.”
Christopher: It’s really inspiring, because that statement is in there every day.
Brian: Right. And not the same people either.
Christopher: Right, exactly.
Brian: In a couple of weeks on the coaching episode of my podcast, one of the ladies I’m helping through as a guinea pig — she’s going to be telling the story of a recent
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field trip with her son. It was the most enjoyable experience she’s ever had. It’s all because she was there and able to… One of the things I told her is the reason she enjoyed it so much is because she was there; she was able to be present. One of the things that keto gives you is the ability to be “present” in your life. A lot of times, when you’re tied to the food, you don’t have the ability to just cut that and be just “there” — you’re at the whim of all this other stuff. So, just being present is just huge.
You’re not just there being pulled; you’re, like, in control. That’s really huge. It’s a huge benefit that, I think, people need to — they need to know about it
Christopher: Right. You can’t tell them about it. The poverty of our descriptive abilities and our language is — it’s really difficult to tell somebody how you feel and what the delta is like. Like “how did I feel before and how do I feel now,” but it is unequivocal when people go through the transition to get there.
I’ve got a guy who was put on a low-carb diet by his doctor, saw what I was doing at work and started it himself. And I can see the vitality and the excitement in him.
Christopher: “Give me more! Give me more keto!” I said, I tell you what I’m going to interview the Ketovangelist today and then he’s going to teach you how to use that podcast mechanism on your phone so you can listen.
But, just really going over it and showing him the links, and doing that, and watching him change. And, then seeing that smile and that little bit of snap in the [77:30] step and all that stuff is, you understand because you’ve been there but it’s hard to tell it forward — this is what you are going to feel like. You know what I mean?
Brian: Absolutely. I coach a lot of people and… It is funny that you say that, because I can almost tell everyone exactly the path they are going to take in terms of milestones. I can’t tell them how long it is going to take to get there.
Every successful person starts with changing their mindset first. That is the first thing. Then they wrestle with and master the food. Once that happens, they get to this point where they’re like, I’ve never felt better. I want to start optimizing myself.
Christopher: Exactly. I went through the same thing. You just nailed it for me. That’s how I went through it. I didn’t tell you. That is just how it happened.
Brian: It is everyone. I have yet to meet someone who got the food down who didn’t, I’ll say within 5 months, come to me and say, “I want a lifting program. I want to start running. I want to start doing hikes up mountains.” Whatever it is. They want to start optimizing themselves for living life because they have gotten to this point.
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Christopher: It may sound strange, but mowing the lawn with 80 pounds on your back for those of us that don’t have time to get to the gym. I see that evolution occur. You mentioned something earlier today about alter-rhythm.
One of the things that I believed for a very long time and the reason that I seek people who want to help others, is that I believe it is okay to be socially altruistic if you will and not be under the impression that we’re supernaturally altruistic. Let me explain.
It is okay to say that I really want to help people knowing one of the benefits is that it is going to make you feel good when you are doing it. But as that evolves a lot of us in the entrepreneurial space start out with the purest intentions of helping others, and we begin to make money [80:00] at it or we have the intention of making money at it, and doing that as our job.
So, the reason that I say that it’s okay to realize that you actually maybe do have some degree of altruism — for people that don’t know, that’s kind of an unfettered giving for no reason — and people say, “Well you are giving for a reason” well yes I am, but I didn’t start out that way. I don’t know where the desire in me comes to want to help people, but being surrounded by a lot of people that say it’s okay for you to make a living at this…
Because there’s two things. If you don’t make a living at it, you’re going to stop, and then you’re not going to be any good to anybody. It could also change your positive outlook, the energy in which you deliver the message, the assistance to help the coaching.
It would be great to be Mother Theresa or Gandhi or those people that have mastered those emotions to the point to where they can deliver that kind of help and just continue to dig in. But there are those external forces that come into play if we’re going to maybe continue to help a broader audience, for example.
Brian: Right, sure.
Christopher: So, I wanted to mention that.
One of the cool things is, is that you don’t ever get to know all the people you helped, because there’s a lot of people out there that are never going to say anything to anybody. They may get a bunch of help and harbor it for themselves because, I don’t know, what’s their motive? They don’t want other people to know? Or they want people to think they’re smart? We’ve all got weird personality hang ups and sometimes that happens that way.
Brian: I started this because I wanted to help people and I never…
You talked about having the proper mind set. You hang out with Tim Ferris and those kind of guys. They would eat me alive if I actually spoke to them about my mindset when I started this out. Because I would say — I do this because I want to help people, but I didn’t actually believe I was helping anyone.
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Christopher: Did you know that they are going to say the same thing? They started out the same way.
Brian: Oh absolutely. But they’ve learned from that and they’d smack me in the back of the head and say, “Of course you’re helping people.” Or whatever.
Christopher: Right, sure. [82:30]
Brian: But that’s the whole idea. If you’re going to do something, do something. Because…
One of my frustrations is I don’t like going half ass. I have to figure out this balance and I apologize for my language.
Christopher: It’s okay, we’ll change the rating. NC-17.
Brian: I have to find this balance because the mantra that I had to eventually come to is “done is better than perfect” and I have to balance that between: I don’t do half assed. There’s got to be this balance where I’m not going to settle, but I still…
I was talking to a fellow entrepreneur, it’s a couple that I know and I love dearly. We’re entrepreneurial spirits, the whole bit, and we kind of help each other. We meet periodically and talk through stuff.
I was talking to her and I had this epiphany as I was talking to her because she was saying the same thing. Because she said basically I have to lower my standards.
I said, “No, you don’t lower your standards. What you do is you keep standards high and that’s the goal. But you’ve gotta get out there and you’ve gotta build it up to that.”
If you look at anyone who’s successful, what they’re doing now is not anywhere close to where they started off with. They started off; it was the best they could do at the time and they’ve gotten better at it. That’s the whole idea from an entrepreneurial perspective.
Christopher: I’m going to just repeat what you said —
Done is better than perfect.
For those of you that know me well and have been talking to me over the last year as I built up, launching the things that I’m launching. My biggest hangup was — I had to have the perfect blog post; I had to have the perfect picture; I had to have the perfect podcast, perfect opening, perfect transitions…
Andrew Warner was the one who called me out on a public challenge and I put it in my podcast number one. And he said, “Okay, I’m on the webcam with you right now. We figured out something for you to pursue. Let’s get going!” –
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Brian: Get off your ass and –
Christopher: — and he didn’t share it out to his millions of followers, but to our class. He said, “this is Christopher’s challenge.” And then I took that and I put that on my first podcast. This is how it all started. [85:00] But there I was, doing exactly what you just said, and I was trying to make everything perfect, but it’s not that way.
Brian: Right. We’ve gone from talking about the diet — now we’re talking about entrepreneurial stuff; I could talk about either one all day long — but one of the benefits that I’ve found is, in interviewing people, I interview entrepreneurial types in different arenas. One of the folks I’ve gotten to know a little bit, he runs a supplement company, and I really, really like this supplement. I like him, I like his company, and I was chatting with him one day after we did an interview and I just basically said, “look I really like what you’re doing, and if I can help in some way let me know.” Four hours later, in the same conversation, I had — basically what you just said — I challenged him to get off his butt and get stuff done. I love that because if I had someone pushing me along I would be so much further ahead than I am right now.
Christopher: Right. Really important part of the “master plan,” is to have somebody like that.
Do you mind naming the supplements? Do you take them now? Do they work with the ketogenic diet? Or…
Brian: I don’t mind — his name is Peter Defty and he runs VESPA — vespapower.com. Essentially what it is, is a supplement that allows you quicker access to your fat stores. So especially if you’re doing endurance athletes, because he deals with guys who run 100 mile races, guys who cycle, 500 mile cycle, or runs — whatever it is.
It’s an enzyme that has been extracted from a wasp in Asia, that has shown that it increases the availability of fat stores for energy. So if you are already ketogenic, and you take this — and I’ve spoken to dozens of people and they all say the same thing — “I was skeptical at first but man it works.”
I was telling him, I really like what you’re doing… Because he’s a really smart guy, and [87:30] the thing is, he came on the podcast and my podcast is about nutrition and it’s about educating people. So I make sure I — I have a brand, obviously, that I’m building and I want to make sure I protect that brand as much as possible, so there are certain things that I won’t allow on the podcast –
Brian: — and I knew he was running a company, Peter Defty, and I knew that he would be more than willing to share the information about his company; but he was so professional about the fact that he was going to respect the line. Right? Because you get some people — they don’t care and they’ll just –
Christopher: For sure.
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Brian: They’ll just say… It’s just kind of — have some class.
Peter was just like, straight up, “This is all about information.”
He brought it and anyone who brings information, I really dig them. And afterward, he said to me, “Look, I know what you’re doing and what you’re doing is you want to educate people and I’m all about educating people too.” Because that’s the thing, he’s like, “I’m not going to step on what you’re doing.”
That was one of the reasons I was like, “Look, I want to help as much as possible.” So, I helped him out; we chat regularly; we’re both just trying to kick each other’s butt to get up and do stuff.
Right now I’m trying to get a video channel going for the keto stuff. I’m on the line right now because I’ve got some equipment, but not the right equipment yet and I’m trying to get it all perfect and I’m… Today I was learning how to do the editing on a new system that I’ve got.
Brian: All this other stuff. I’m watching all these folks who are on YouTube already; they’re like “Just do it. Do it.”
Christopher: That’s right. Take your own advice right now. I’m telling you what –
Brian: Yes, exactly.
Christopher: Nothing will teach you better than getting into the video editing and doing it. What used to take me two days to edit takes me five minutes now.
Christopher: — and it seemed so intimidating at first. It’s great advice!
Another thing that I’m admiring that you’re doing is that you have a little bit of an accountability partnership here, a relationship –
Christopher: — and you’re encouraging one another and you need that. Because as entrepreneurs that are location independent: once we achieve that state we become lonely. We get to make all the decisions, right?
Sometimes those decisions can use maybe a better way, maybe a different perspective.
Christopher: So I would [90:00] encourage you to formalize that process with him.
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You might hear the term “Mastermind Meeting” out on the internet and whatnot. What Cory Glauner did for me — the founder of Outdoors International and a very good friend who lives here in Hagerman — took one look at my mess of companies and ideas and everything, and he moved them around on a white board like a little shell game, and he said, “Why don’t you approach it like this?”
I’m not kidding you, within a week, I was approaching it like that, and I was able to grasp it. But I couldn’t see it where I was at, and that’s maybe something that he might offer. So that’s awesome.
Brian: It never hurts to have a second perspective. Even in the worst-case scenario where they’re not seeing the same thing you’re seeing, and you just have to say, “Thanks, but no thanks.” But it never hurts to have a second perspective. I totally agree. Like you, I’ve got multiple irons in the fire. I’ve got a whole bunch of stuff that I’m trying to get off the ground, and you’re right. The idea is focus on the things that move you forward. Because it’s so easy to focus on the things that are busywork. They present as if you’re making something happen, but you’re not.
Brian: The couple that I was talking about — the husband will text me periodically because I’ll tell him what I’m doing, and he’s like, “Hey, have you got this-thatand-the-other? How’s that thing going?”
I’ll do the same thing with him, and ask what’s the status of whatever. Formalizing it is something that I think is a great idea that I’m going to have to look into, figuring out how to do that.
I will tell you this, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Mastermind groups, because I was part of one –
Brian: It was a horrible experience for me.
I had finally decided I was going to pony up some money to learn the right way to do this and I got into the group and I was the most knowledgeable. And when I am the most knowledgeable in a group — trouble. That group is in trouble from the beginning. So I may have to look into that some more for sure.
But you’re right, this idea that you’re by yourself, it’s hard to [92:30] find ways that you can get objective opinions about bouncing ideas off of stuff.
Anyway, I’m sorry, I apologize, I could go on, and on, and on.
Christopher: You know it’s all good. When I inquired about talking with you in the beginning — it’s hard to look and say Rec and Tech Podcast, Hunter, Technician — how does this fit into the ketogenic diet? But I think now, in hindsight, you can look back and say “wow, it makes a lot of sense,” and what we touched on today was the foundation; we talked about the masses.
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The reason that people are coming to me right now are not saying “Christopher, will you tell me about the epigenetic benefits of the ketogenic diet? Will you tell me how you understand that ketones cross the blood-brain barrier more quickly by virtue of caffeine or whatever other carriers they are?” Nobody is asking me about molecular biology.
But they want to know — “dude, how did you lose 50 pounds in a last six months and gain nine pounds of muscle?” Which…
I’m gonna say right now, Brian just did a wonderful podcast on really just scratching the surface around muscle building and the ketogenic diet. I was already aware of it, the possibilities, because of all the studies I had done before and attempting different forms of the ketogenic diet. So I was equipped when I started, knowing that I wasn’t going to allow my muscle to get burned as a result of what I was doing. I also knew better than to get into exercise in the first month. I waited.
I got myself into position to lift. And then I started lifting. And then I started lifting with Olympic lifts. I didn’t just go in there and start hitting it real quick, let my immune system get weak while I’m already in the “Keto Flu” — which is something that you can read about either on Brian’s “Ketovangelist” website or on the podcast that he talks about or in his book.
What think that there is room for, Brian, is for us to at sometime, as our relationship evolves, and we get it to another place — there is a massive need for the not-so-popular discussion around athletic performance, around obviously, the health benefits, [95:00] utilizing exogenous or external ketones to be ingested.
I believe that there is a danger in the beta-Hydroxybutyrate as it stands today and is being distributed. Again, I am one guy and don’t have a lot of research on it but I can tell you right now that glucose and ketones coexisting in the same body — probably not healthy but I don’t have any science to confirm that. Maybe ketone esters might be the answer. That’s another discussion that’s far more technical down the road. These are a bunch of hypotheses that I supported by other people in other science.
But for the hunter, for the outdoorsman, for the athlete, for the bicyclist, the person in the gym, the person that wants to have a healthy life and work out and get muscle-gaining benefits and muscle hypertrophy when they’re in the gym and on the ketogenic diet –maybe even a calorie restricted ketogenic diet — I know that that’s all plausible and I think that there’s an arena for having those discussions, and maybe sometimes the fat loss aspect is the way to attract those people, get them to experience what you spoke about which is that feeling of wellbeing of health of control. Right? All things you mentioned more than once.
Brian: Absolutely. Like I said, the vast majority of people come to keto because they saw someone lose weight, and that’s fine if that’s how you can get people into the door
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because it’s getting people healthy. Once they experience the true benefits from it…
It doesn’t have to be “sold” once you’ve experienced it. Once you’ve been to the point where you can say — OK, this is what keto is — you don’t have to sell it anymore.
It’s easy to tell people, look, this is not a problem anymore for me.
Getting them into the door to understand that you’re slowly killing yourself the way you’re doing things…
It’s a conversation that I have regularly with people, they say for example, “My dad, I’m worried about him, I’m skeptical, he’s had three open heart surgeries [95:00] but he’s skeptical of this,” and I’m thinking — so he’s been eating the way that he’s been eating and he’s had three open heart surgeries and he’s scared to try a completely different way of eating? I fail to see how that works out. How does that make sense?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. If you want to change something, you’ve got to change something. That’s all there is to it.
Christopher: Right. I always have the wrong answers for people when they say, “Okay, what do I need to do?” And I say, — “Well, it depends.” — “How much fat do I need to eat?” — “Well, I don’t know.”
Your body is going to respond to carbohydrates different than mine does. I walk by a large order of french fries and my insulin goes through the roof and I put two pounds on, and I didn’t touch them.
Like you wrote in the past that you don’t eat bread, because you love it. You used to make your own, right? And you don’t eat it because you know that it’s going to result in the same thing it used to.
Oftentimes we’re incapable of seeing it. We can’t force things to get there.
My prediction, I said we’d talk a little bit about the future and being out in front of things. God bless Quest Nutrition. I tried their bars, I don’t know, six years ago. Whatever their protein bars are called, just Quest bars.
They came out with the vanilla nut. They were showcasing them in Boise. I was at the gym working out. I went and ate them. I said, “My gosh! That is really good! Let me see that package.”
I looked at it, and it had fiber in it. I’m like — oh my gosh — I had already been doing research… There’s not a healthy protein bar on the market. They all, when I say “healthy” in context, have sugar, sugar alcohol, glycerol, sucrose, sucrose whatever. 440 protein bars later, the only one that had any fiber in it and that addressed at least a low glycemic index was that bar. I’m like — Quest is going to
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blow up, man — I wish I could have invested in it somehow. The same thing with LaCroix water.
Christopher: I drank the regular LaCroix water when it was the only one. I contacted LaCroix. I said, “I want to be your poster child.” We did a little success story; things like that. Once again, I talked myself out of being the Jared from Subway’s for [100:00] LaCroix. But way out in front of it.
I don’t know how many grocery stores I talked to in Boise at the time, which is where I lived, to bring La Croix in. I consumed so much of it and I still do today. You know sparkling water, right? It’s a beverage.
All of those things being said, I think that for you to continue to grow, to encourage the people that you’re encouraging, to build out your network…
I can say that again, I joke about “tens of followers” and maybe I only have a few, but I believe that I’ve had so much interest in the Ketogenic Diet, and what I know about it.
I take good pictures of my food. I was trained in the culinary — I was a food guy before I was in the software and protein business.
Christopher: People were saying, “Whoa, what’s that? How’d you make that?” Well, you’re going to have to wait for the cookbook, and there’s a good chance its going to take 15 years, so you’re going to be waiting a long time.
Brian: Right, for sure.
Christopher: But there’s a lot of questions, a lot of traction and we direct people your way and hopefully, as brothers in the Ketogenic Lifestyle, now I know you’re a bow-hunter, entrepreneur getting started, facing a lot of the same fears and roadblocks and frustrations, I’m just pulling for you. There’s a little bit of selfishness there. I want to make sure my podcasts are there tomorrow.
Brian: [laughs] Right.
Christopher: — because the coaching sessions that you do for those people that don’t know what that’s like…
I think it’s brilliant the way that you brought that. You said, “I’m not just going to offer coaching, I’m going to share the experience with you on the podcast.” It’s real, it’s authentic, it’s powerful because you’re listening to somebody, and you may listen to the whole podcast, and only 2 things that they’ve experienced or you’re experiencing, but it can just benefit you.
So you can kind of tag along as a lurker and get some free coaching until that
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time where you step up and say, “You know, I’m going to do that.”
You get the guts and “I’m going to go on that podcast and do the coaching that way.”
I think it’s all going to be super-beneficial, and I can definitely see us having a discussion in the future around performance, around our ideas that I think are shared, around the benefits that way and how far it can [102:30] be taken. That’s kind of the rabbit trail that I went down with that whole story –
Christopher: — and preparing us for that next go-around, or the next step in the evolution.
Brian: Well I think it parallels what I was saying before.
When I am dealing with who are new to keto… Like I said, I can identify the milestones that everyone was going to go through.
I think the key to the ketogenic idea is going to go through the same milestones. Because right now it is kind of in the infant stage, and at some point in time when people get it figured out, then it is going to go to the — “how can we optimize ourselves?”
That is… The idea of performance… My prediction is in eight years every Olympic athlete is going to be ketogenic, and they are not going to be ketogenic just three weeks prior. They are going to be living a ketogenic diet, lifestyle, and we are going to see world-records breaking, and we are going to see endurance increase, and we are just going to see athletic performance go a little bit higher than it is now.
We have taken athletic performance, we have taken human capacity for athletic ability, and we have basically maximized our training ability. Aside from a complete overhaul, we are in a state right now in human history, we have the most scientific, most cutting-edge methods of training, and it’s hard to imagine how that is going to improve.
Brian: And what can improve, and what can make dramatic increases are getting out from under the weight of — everything is got to be sugar; everything is got to be carbs.
Once everything shifts to the ketogenic way of doing things, I think we are going to see tremendous strides. OK, let’s not talk to the Olympic athletes in the audience for a minute.
Christopher: Right, and I am sure there’s multitudes. [laughs]
Brian: Right, there’s probably a whole bunch.
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— but that has benefits to, just like me, the average Joe who is hitting the gym, or decides to take up running, or whatever. Those benefits are still — reap-able. [105:00] All right. Let’s say that. You can still measure those benefits again.
I think you’re right, there is going to be… The market for ketogenic performance… It would be an understatement to say it’s untapped. It is in pre-infancy right now.
Christopher: For sure.
Brian: There’s a tremendous amount of research being done. I’m really looking forward to that. I’m sure just like you, I try to stay in contact with people who are really on the forefront of that because I really want to keep up to speed on all of it, not just because I like the idea of it from an entrepreneurial perspective, I want to be involved.
Christopher: That’s exactly what I was thinking as you were saying that, is that I want to contribute. I want to be involved. I want to also hopefully be able to put the effort into it. As you can tell, my passion is may be fly fishing and bow hunting and the outdoors, but food is always going to be a part of my life.
I’m going to tell you right now, my ketogenic food is bad ass. It’s hard not to be, right? When you can take an egg and you can fry it inside of a pepper and cover it with butter or ghee or the good cream, how hard is it to make things? A chef that worked for me and also did some time in culinary school with me, his name is Mike Fry, he said one time, “You give me fat and a deep fat fryer and I can make anything taste good.”
Brian: Heck yes.
Christopher: Yes, anything, right?
Now my family’s forced, because I’ve always been the one that prepares them.
Here in Hagerman we have a little bit of a communal experience. There’s two families that live right across the street from each other — I say “street” — we’ve each got like five acres. We eat together. Theresa will say, “Are you going to make dinner tonight for everybody?” — “Well, yes.” — “What are you going to make?” — “I’m going to make sea bass. It’ll be healthy.”
Then I make a turmeric cream sauce and put it over it, after I’ve lightly fried it in butter. Then I serve it with Brussels sprouts cooked in bacon grease [107:30] and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is the best thing I’ve ever eaten in my whole life!”
I’m like, “oh, it’s healthy” — “How can it be? Look at all that fat.”
Christopher: That same old mindset comes in, and that way we’ve been taught our entire lives. So, we’re going to have to jump out of that. The first people to move out of that
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are going to be the upper echelon of performers, who say, “I want more out of my performance.” The evidence says this is better than the high-carb route filling-upmy-glycogen stores, and then getting out there and depleting them.
That’s a great way to do it. That’s worked for a lot of years, but, oh wait a minute, there may be a better way. How about if you could do that for twice as long now because you’ve got that in supplies.
I think it’s neat; I’ve really enjoyed visiting with you today; I’ve been looking forward to it quite a bit. As I always say to people when I talk to them, that if you ever have a question that you think I may have some expertise in that I am able to help — how to flambe your dessert, whatever it might be, how to do influential marketing — don’t ask me how Snapchat works yet, because I haven’t had a sixteen year old teach me.
Brian: Oh that’s true.
Christopher: Social media stuff… But where the real strengths lie are with SEO — Sales Engine Optimization — inbound marketing, which is the new SEO, and really developing that personal brand in such a way.
The thing is, is you posses a lot of the characteristics — honest, relevant, consistent — the things that make — if you will — stars out of people on the Internet. Give the average Joe the opportunity at least to throw our hat in the ring.
You’ve done the work on the research side, and you’re helping people, so the recipe’s all there. I’d say, hang in there.
As we said, I think Gary Vaynerchuk said it best in a keynote that he gave at Web 2.0 — gosh, this was probably eight years ago, where he said –
Brian: That’s a while. [laughs]
Christopher: Yeah, Web 2.0; — “Stop watching Lost” — basically — “you’ve got to do something.”
You’re not going to write a blog post and have it go viral. [110:00] You’re not going to take seven pictures of your fish or your elk or whatever and put them on Instagram and the money is just going to start rolling in.
It’s a business; it has to be started; it has to be cultivated. It has to be grown and it has to be done with purpose.
Brian: Right, absolutely.
Christopher: You’re obviously passionate about it, which is another key component that must exist. Otherwise, you’ll burn out, you know.
Brian: Oh, sure, yes, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And I want to thank you again for
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having me on the show. I think you are the first person to actually ask me to be on a podcast, which is a little weird, from my perspective, because I’m usually the one in your seat asking all the questions and –
Christopher: Right. It’s kind of hard, isn’t it?
Brian: Well, yes, there’s…. As you heard me rambling on and on… I usually have more organization because I have to keep things organized because I’m the one asking the questions. Now I’m just like — OK, I just answer…
Christopher: Well, you know one of the things about podcasting is that the more of a conversation that it is, and certainly there’s parameters and strategy. We only have so much time because people only listen for so long –
Christopher: But that real conversation between two real, average Joe, bow-hunter guys — there’s going to be people out there in the bow-hunting community that are going to come in and give me some support in the Ketogenics Success page.
Christopher: I know Cory’s already in there and Mike Betz is in there; I’ve seen him in there, and I invited my cousin-in-law just recently and she’s been in there posting. But they’re going to come in and they’re going to hear it and they’re going to say, “Wow, these guys can do this thing; hey, I’ve been working on this invention on how to, make fly-fishing better and now I’m going to do a podcast on that” or whatever the case may be. I know that I was inspired and given a lot of ideas by people like you and I.
I’ve been a sales guy — enterprise sales for software, for a lot of years, for probably now 15, so picking up the phone and calling somebody and asking them — hey, will you do this? — “no” is always alright; I totally understand.
How many people do I say no to every day that are asking if I want to do advertising with them or you know, whatever. I’ve done — I wouldn’t say several — but a lot of podcasts, and so when I did my first one on the interviewing side —
Brian: Yes. [112:30]
Christopher: — because I had been a guest before where I had an area of expertise, and I was like, “Woah…”
Christopher: The other thing that’s hard for me is to — OK, ask him a question, and let him talk.
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Christopher: — because you know what, Christoper, they want to hear what he has to say. He’s the Ketovangelist, because you’re not.
Christopher: — and letting you answer the questions in your way because you’ve put a lot more thought and effort into it. I’m the student in the keto world of yours, and I’m gonna keep digging in.
We are the kind of guys that like to read Gary Taubes who’s just as colorful as they come. It’s like an action picture…
Brian: Right. It’s funny that you mention that because one of the most prominent feedback pieces that I got from when I first started my podcast, when I first started doing interviews was, “Shut up; let them talk.” [Laughs]
Christopher: Yes, so true.
B; Yes, I had to learn that. I had to learn that because I didn’t want my guest to be thinking that I wasn’t listening, so I wanted to make sure that they knew I was listening.
I appreciate you having me on; I really do. I appreciate everything that you are doing, because what you are doing will help spread the word of keto. Because you’re right — I don’t want to say it’s a light mission — but the truth of the matter is I want to help people experience life. It sounds weird for me to say that it’s beyond just losing weight. I want people to experience the fullness of life, and I know that sounds kinda hippie-ish, but that’s –
Christopher: Hippie is good.
Brian: It’s the truth because you can’t experience the fullness of life until you remove the trappings that are keeping you from experiencing it.
Brian: That’s really all there is to it.
Christopher: Amen to that.
People always say,”Why do you talk so much about health and fitness in your blog posts? Why do you talk so much about diet? Why do you talk about that?”
I got interviewed by Marc Warnke on his podcast, and we talked a lot about how my physiology resulted in me not having the experience that I would have had, had I been in the shape I am today, or back when I talked to him which was probably four months ago. [115:00]
How much more enjoyable is fishing for me when I can go into the good hole that nobody else is fishing and get the transcendence of becoming closer with the
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outdoors and nature with minimal effort? How great is it that I don’t have to carry very much food? I carry a stick of butter, some MTC oil powder and some yerba mate and I’m good to go for the weekend.
Again, you’re not in that same situation where you’re not threatened by the fact that — let’s say you spend the day feeding the fish as opposed catching the fish — you’re not in that position where you… I think you put it well, of “being in that transcendent state where you’re connecting with nature.”
For guys — for men in general there’s this innate call to connect with nature. Anything that you can do… It’s one of the reasons I appreciate what you’re doing, and in a way I’m fascinated by the tech vs the outdoor — trying to combine that -I’m totally fascinated by that.
But anything that you can do that magnifies that ability to connect with your roots, as it were, to be able to connect with nature, and if all it is is just the sole matter of changing the way you eat and you’re able to experience this thing that is innate anyway in you, why wouldn’t you? Again, the fullness of life — that’s what you’re looking for.
Christopher: I love the way you put it because there’s a richness, a depth. I guess one of the things that Brian Call taught me from the Gritty Bowmen — who’s kind of sponsoring the show, I just haven’t sent him a bill yet — is that he was telling me, where we reversed roles a little bit.
I was talking to him about being kind of a jackass because I hadn’t started my podcast yet and he was like, “get out and do it, man!” He was a good 100 episodes in by then and he was talking — he goes, “You know what man, at first I cared about just being me and just laying it all out there [117:30] and then pretty soon I just… You know what, I don’t care. If I’m not the best hunter or I don’t get the biggest animal, or I’m not the — whatever the case may be; I make mistakes or I bumble stuff up on the podcast, or it’s silly, or whatever the case — I’m just getting it out there.
It was funny because at that moment when we were having a discussion, it was one of the realizations that I really not only listen to that podcast because of that reason — because he was so authentic and real — but I envied the fact that he was capable of just putting it out there like that.
Brian: Right, and not giving a crap that it wasn’t perfect. Absolutely.
When I first started — I’m certain you can attest to this — when I first started my podcast, I spent weeks making sure every single little thing was exactly the way -because I didn’t want anyone thinking I was crackerjack, I wanted it to be like, top notch, best I could do; the whole bit — and it sucked.
I look back at it now and it’s horrible. I’m better at it now, and in two years I’ll be better then than I am now at it. That’s all there is to it. You’re absolutely right.
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Let me just say this — if anyone listening has been thinking about starting something, start it. Just do it, and start it. Because waiting is benefiting no one.
Christopher: Including yourself, if you’re listening. The period of time that elapses while you’re waiting is going to grow longer and longer, but the minute you put something out there, it just rolls.
It’s the hugest step, is that first thing you do, whether it be a blog post, a picture, a story, a YouTube channel, whatever — art gallery.
Brian: The thing is — when you do it, when you first start it — now you’re committed to it.
You do a podcast, or you start a blog, or do a video series, someone out there is going to be listening, reading, or watching, and I’m telling you this from experience, even when you don’t think they are, and they’re expecting the next one.
Every successful sales person will tell you, you become successful [120:00] in sales when you understand that what you’re trying to sell is helping someone.
So if you’re trying to help someone, then they’re expecting you to produce. If you’re trying to help someone produce, just do it. Just get it out there and I can guarantee you. I am amazed at the number of people who do stuff… I look at it and I go, “That is the most bush-league, amateurish…” and they have got starkraving fans.
I’m not their audience. It doesn’t matter that I don’t like it.
Brian: The people that they’re trying to reach are the ones who are like, “You are the best ever!” And that’s exactly who you…
Christopher: That’s their audience.
Brian: Yes, exactly. You work your butt off; you get a thousand hard-core fans, you’ll never work a day in your life after that.
That’s just the truth of it, you know.
Christopher: That is great. It does — it encapsulates the whole story — the keno diet, entrepreneurial-ism, the outdoor lifestyle, the performance athlete, the person who wants to experience life at a level that’s available to us today…
Maybe its hard for them to see it right now, but if they give it a shot, and they incorporate it as part of…
I’m not saying it’s the only way; I’m just saying that is what I’ve seen, what I’ve
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learned, what I’ve done for research, for those of you that know me, and see me piling through these giant books, taking notes, listening over and over again, restudying, cooking you dinner while I prick my finger with my Abbott. [laughs] You know, dripping blood in your bacon.
Christopher: You said it well. It’s worth a try if you have a little depression. It’s worth a try if you may suspect that there’s a little Asperger’s or a little autism in you. I know that it’s worth a try if you have ADHD, because my picture is in the dictionary right next to the definition of ADHD. It really has given me focus.
If you need to lose some fat, and you’ve tried everything, and you bounce off of it, and you say that it doesn’t work, and you feel bad about it and you think that there’s no hope — I’ve got to say that it works.
During this time that we spoke about that three to four weeks that you’re becoming fat-adapted, your body is still [122:30] responding in a fat-loss perspective very well.
Brian: Oh absolutely. The process of becoming keto-adapted or fat-adapted — it means the same thing — but the process is your body healing. It cannot be overemphasized how beneficial that is. And the reward that you are going to have because of it.
We’ve come so far down, because of bad science and because of bad nutrition. The only way we can go is up. Keto is… In my opinion, it’s the best way to get there, and I’ve had conversations with nutritionists who disagree with me about this and that’s okay because they’re wrong.
Brian: I think keto should be the starting point. It should be the starting point that everyone works off of. You can tweak and adjust — whatever.
I know plenty of keto folks who have been keto for years, and years, and years, and years, and they occasionally eat candy, and they occasionally eat potatoes. But because they are so adapted and because they are so used to it. Their body is so in tune to where it’s supposed to be, that it does not have the deleterious effects. That’s the key, is getting yourself to that point.
Again there’s not a single area that I can think of that cannot be benefited. You have a day job? Okay well, this can help you with that because it allows you to focus better on your day job. You want to start your own business? This gives you the energy and focus to do that. You want to get healthy? There is no better way. You want to be a better parent? This gives you the energy and focus to do that. Everything is there.
Christopher: Being present with your kids or your family.
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Brian: Yes. Absolutely.
Christopher: Sit there and be present.
Brian: Yes. If you are able… If your entire experience with your family is waiting to get back home so you can sit down, nobody enjoys that; you don’t enjoy that. But if you can actually experience life…
I can’t overstate, I don’t think. I cannot overstate it. Keto is a way [125:00] to experience the fullness of life. You get control over yourself; you start to understand yourself better. We didn’t even get into the whole intuitive aspect of how to eat and what that does in terms of your outlook; that’s a whole separate -I think that’s a whole separate book.
Christopher: Yes, a whole podcast series!
Brian: Speak 1: Right, all of these thing play in. I can go on and on and on, and I appreciate you allowing me to ramble. But you’re right — this is my passion; I am passionate about this. Because it helps people; I see people everyday. We’ve got fourteen thousand members, and we’re growing, in the Ketogenic Success Group, and I’m seeing dozens and dozens and dozens of posts every single day talking about how they’re being helped.
Christopher: Well, let me do this, for those people that are interested in having a look at what we’re talking about on the Facebook site — the Ketogenic Success Group. Can people request to go into the Ketogenic Success Group?
Christopher: Can somebody recommend you? I know I’ve recommended people before.
Brian: Yes, it’s a closed group, so you have to basically click the button that says “request to enter the group” or whatever. You, as a member, could invite someone in, but they’ll still have to go through… As the admins, we have to go in and allow them in as well.
Brian: So, yes, it’s just a matter of clicking a button and, unless you seem shady, we’ll let you in.
Christopher: Speak 2: And maybe we’ll let you in if you’re shady too!
Brian: Right, and there have been some shady folks that got in, even though we didn’t want them to.
Christopher: I had no idea it was that big; I really didn’t.
Brian: Well, the goal… The goal is one hundred thousand; that’s what I’m shooting for; that’s where I want to be; so I’ve got a ways to go. But it’s growing really well. We
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haven’t been open for a year, that group hasn’t been around for a year yet, and I’m hoping that I can hit twenty thousand before the year hits. But it is what it is.
I’m more interested in making sure that we keep the vibe that’s going, as opposed to the numbers. I like the fact that people feel safe and they can [127:30] talk about it and they can ask questions. I will go to the mat with anyone to make sure that stays the way it is.
Christopher: And you have. Some of the recent… I like to call them “haters” because we have a ton in the hunting industry, right?
Christopher: And then you got the book. The great thing about the book is that starter guide if you want. But you can also go to the “Ketovangelist”. And just so you guys know, it’s K E T O V A N G E L I S T. You get it?
Christopher: “Ketovangelist”. No “E” in there after that.
Brian: That is a pet peeve of mine. People, bless their hearts, they mean well where they refer to the site as the “Keto-Evangelists,” or they call me “The Keto-Evangelist.” There’s a reason why it’s the port mentor that it is. It’s “Ketovangelist.”
I appreciate you bringing that up there — point that out.
Christopher: It’s little things like that being a podcast junkie for the last 7-8 years, listening very carefully when people do that. We do have show notes.
I got a great transcriber. I actually wanted him to be on the podcast, because he’s part of the gig economy and he’s a freelancer. He’s a very similar story, but he’s not ready. Maybe one day.
Brian: You may have to pass me his name.
Christopher: Yes, he’s really good. I’ll send you an email with that and we’ll bring him out of the closet when he’s ready. But it’s a great story and he’s… You said something in the podcast that he said to me at one point — was that he is just crazy and passionate about delivering the perfection, and he won’t let himself give a product to somebody that he’s worked on that’s substandard and it shows.
Is there any other way to get in touch with you? You do any other social media stuff besides Facebook?
Brian: Yes, aside from ketovangelist — and there’s a contact page there that you can find — you can also check me out… You can look for Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Just look for “Ketovangelist.” I’m not very active on Twitter on purpose.
Christopher: Yes, well it’s so old school.
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Brian: It’s noise and I… Instagram, I’m becoming way more enamored with as time [130:00] goes on because as a design guy — I’m not a designer, but man — you want to distract me, give me a book of good design, or put me in a store that sells design; I will be just completely distracted for the whole time. So Instagram for me is like this search for — what else can I find today that is just really, really sharp and nice and crisp?
I recently had lunch with another keto rockstar. She goes by — “ketokarma” is her handle, Suzanne Ryan. She was looking at my Instagram and she goes “yes this sucks.”
Brian: “I know.”
And she’s like, “so here’s what you need to do” and she gave me some tips and some pointers and I was like — OK — so I’m kind of rejuvenated on that a little bit.
The Facebook group, The Ketogenic Success Facebook group, I’m hanging out there a lot; you can find me on Instagram, you can find me on Twitter, although I’m not very active on Twitter, I do have a Facebook page for Ketovangelist, but the two main areas that I interact on aside from the site, is the group on Facebook and Instagram.
I’m actually contemplating putting together some — this is a little off topic — an outline for an E-book to talk about… Because one thing I’m seeing that’s not being addressed is using Facebook groups as a marketing platform. Because if you provide enough information, and if you provide a good enough experience, I think that it’s kind of untapped. Because a lot of Facebook groups are used to just push an ideology, or they’re used to just be places where people go to argue, or whatever, as opposed to a community. I’m really intrigued –
Christopher: You’ll be able to move like Ketovangelist shirts — with your picture on the front…
Brian: Right, just me going “hey.”
Christopher: That’s it. Does anyone ever tell you that you kind of resemble Chris Sacca just a little bit?
Brian: That I have not heard. All throughout high school I was [132:30] told that I look like James Hetfield, the lead singer in Metallica.
Christopher: Oh, yes. Got it.
Brian: I have not heard that one. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing. I’m going to say it’s good for me, not good for him.
Christopher: The good thing is, he probably doesn’t care. The fact that he’s the most successful
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venture capitalist to date as far as making early calls, that’s a good one.
I’m going to wrap up. I will put this together and let you have a look at it. Hopefully I’ll do it quicker than five weeks. It should only take a few days now that we’ve got the process in place and they’re stacked up.
Brian: No problem. Like I said, I appreciate you having me on the show. It’s just a lot of fun. It’s weird being in this seat as opposed to the interviewer’s seat. I appreciate you being kind to me.
Christopher: My pleasure.
Brian: If there’s anything that I can do, I don’t know what I can do; but if I can help in some way, just let me know.
Christopher: I’ll keep firing the questions in the group or if it’s more personal or requires a little more attention, I’ll put it in the email and I’ll send you the name of my transcriber too and have a look because having that quality’s awesome.
Brian: No doubt. I get asked constantly about transcribing, and I don’t have time to do it myself. I think that would be something to look into for sure.
Well this is Christopher, Rec and Tech Podcast. I think that we pretty much put to bed that if you’re thinking about doing it — just do something.
Christopher: Hey, thanks a lot again, Brian. I sure appreciate it.
Brian: Thank you very much.
Christopher: All right. We’ll talk soon.